Comments on: Life Stages and Spiritual Interest http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/ Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:20:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: Paul Johnston http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-843 Paul Johnston Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:00:02 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-843 With regret, I no longer feel comfortable participating in dialogues on this cite.<br/><br/>Peace Always,<br/><br/>Paul With regret, I no longer feel comfortable participating in dialogues on this cite.

Peace Always,

Paul

]]> By: Paul Johnston http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-842 Paul Johnston Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:51:15 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-842 Hey Jc, thanks also for the sincerity of your last post. <br/><br/>In the Catholic expression of Christianity the potentials and experiences of a mystic personal relationship, experienced directly with God, are affirmed, worshipped and revered.<br/><br/>I think it is important for the seeker, that in order for him to enter into this type of relationship, he engage with a spiritual culture that beleives and affirms this type of relationship.<br/><br/>Because I think it will help you find what you are looking for I would invite you to go to a Catholic church near you, but only one that contains the "Blessed Sacrament" within the confines of an adoration chapel. <br/><br/>Ask the parish priest about the chapel. Ask him who we say is there. Talk to brothers and sisters you find who visit this place and ask them who they encounter. And finally, my friend, open your heart to the possibility that you are in the presence of the son of God and through Him, the Trinity. <br/><br/>Speak as a brother and as son in desperate need of a direct, open and loving relationship with his Brother and his Father and not as a potential believer seeking proofs.<br/><br/>Cry out to the Lord your God and your voice will be heard.<br/><br/>Love Always,<br/><br/>Paul Hey Jc, thanks also for the sincerity of your last post.

In the Catholic expression of Christianity the potentials and experiences of a mystic personal relationship, experienced directly with God, are affirmed, worshipped and revered.

I think it is important for the seeker, that in order for him to enter into this type of relationship, he engage with a spiritual culture that beleives and affirms this type of relationship.

Because I think it will help you find what you are looking for I would invite you to go to a Catholic church near you, but only one that contains the “Blessed Sacrament” within the confines of an adoration chapel.

Ask the parish priest about the chapel. Ask him who we say is there. Talk to brothers and sisters you find who visit this place and ask them who they encounter. And finally, my friend, open your heart to the possibility that you are in the presence of the son of God and through Him, the Trinity.

Speak as a brother and as son in desperate need of a direct, open and loving relationship with his Brother and his Father and not as a potential believer seeking proofs.

Cry out to the Lord your God and your voice will be heard.

Love Always,

Paul

]]> By: ryan http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-841 ryan Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:56:06 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-841 I think it's always dangerous to attach ALL of the significance of Christian life to the "back end," so to speak, and it certainly can make (and has made) Christians 'functionally useless' throughout the history of the church. <br/><br/>I would say that it is possible to have that vision of shalom in the next life firmly in view, while at the same time doing one's best to make it a reality in the present - in fact I think it our Christian obligation to do so. Part of our role as Christ's church is to be a microcosm of what will one day be a cosmic reality. <br/><br/>My concern has to do with making certain experiences normative or defnitive of what it means to be a Christian - I'm not sure we should or even can say that someone should experience x or y here and now if they have truly believed and obeyed the Christian message. This is not to say that we shouldn't expect character changes (eg. the fruit of the Spirit); however this is more a matter of obedience and has less to do with some of the affective emotional states that we are sometimes led to believe ought to be experienced by all believers.<br/><br/>I think often of Jesus' words to Thomas after the resurrection: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe." (John 20:29) Perhaps I am guilty of extending these words too far, but I think they speak to the fact that the truth of Christ will not always be obvious, and will not always result in momentous change in our lives here and now. Sometimes it will be (and is) hard to believe; sometimes a life of faith will be more difficult than one without it. Sometimes we will not 'see,' but we are still called to believe and obey. I think it’s always dangerous to attach ALL of the significance of Christian life to the “back end,” so to speak, and it certainly can make (and has made) Christians ‘functionally useless’ throughout the history of the church.

I would say that it is possible to have that vision of shalom in the next life firmly in view, while at the same time doing one’s best to make it a reality in the present - in fact I think it our Christian obligation to do so. Part of our role as Christ’s church is to be a microcosm of what will one day be a cosmic reality.

My concern has to do with making certain experiences normative or defnitive of what it means to be a Christian - I’m not sure we should or even can say that someone should experience x or y here and now if they have truly believed and obeyed the Christian message. This is not to say that we shouldn’t expect character changes (eg. the fruit of the Spirit); however this is more a matter of obedience and has less to do with some of the affective emotional states that we are sometimes led to believe ought to be experienced by all believers.

I think often of Jesus’ words to Thomas after the resurrection: “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” (John 20:29) Perhaps I am guilty of extending these words too far, but I think they speak to the fact that the truth of Christ will not always be obvious, and will not always result in momentous change in our lives here and now. Sometimes it will be (and is) hard to believe; sometimes a life of faith will be more difficult than one without it. Sometimes we will not ’see,’ but we are still called to believe and obey.

]]> By: Incoming... http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-840 Incoming... Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:55:33 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-840 1. thanks jc for the honesty. your words are unfortunately too familiar for me (i have other friends who have said the same thing). One of my contentions is that the church has presented faith in God with some ill-conceived notions that we build our expectation of God around. what i hear in your words is a basic hope in the larger spiritual reality of the human experience. <br/>we have been told that the essence of faith is about how it benefits us. could it be that faith might have almost nothing to do with our own benefit either now or after life? could it be more about what we give than what we recieve? 1. thanks jc for the honesty. your words are unfortunately too familiar for me (i have other friends who have said the same thing). One of my contentions is that the church has presented faith in God with some ill-conceived notions that we build our expectation of God around. what i hear in your words is a basic hope in the larger spiritual reality of the human experience.
we have been told that the essence of faith is about how it benefits us. could it be that faith might have almost nothing to do with our own benefit either now or after life? could it be more about what we give than what we recieve?

]]> By: Gil http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-839 Gil Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:14 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-839 Ryan,<br/>I think you're right in saying that the ultimate 'benefit' of Christianity (restored shalom) is something that will not be verified in this life. But I also wonder about what we can expect or hope for in this life. Christian eschatology is often criticized for deferring everything until 'the end' and making us functionally useless (and potentially disillusioned) in the present. Any thoughts? Ryan,
I think you’re right in saying that the ultimate ‘benefit’ of Christianity (restored shalom) is something that will not be verified in this life. But I also wonder about what we can expect or hope for in this life. Christian eschatology is often criticized for deferring everything until ‘the end’ and making us functionally useless (and potentially disillusioned) in the present. Any thoughts?

]]> By: Gil http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-838 Gil Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:49:35 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-838 Sabrina,<br/>I think you make a very good point. The discussion so far has focused on the question of what is wrong with either the church or Christian faith as its been presented. You raise the possibility of us (this generation) bearing some of the responsibility as well. <br/><br/>I want to be careful not to blame anyone whose experience of God is less than they'd hoped for but I think you raise some a valid point regarding the expectation that many of us have that anything worth having should be immediately accessible and require minimal effort. <br/><br/>I would add that this is a generation characterized by a strong suspicion of and resistance to authority (some of that suspicion is well justified) and this makes it less likely to find the moral imperatives of any belief system all that attractive. Sabrina,
I think you make a very good point. The discussion so far has focused on the question of what is wrong with either the church or Christian faith as its been presented. You raise the possibility of us (this generation) bearing some of the responsibility as well.

I want to be careful not to blame anyone whose experience of God is less than they’d hoped for but I think you raise some a valid point regarding the expectation that many of us have that anything worth having should be immediately accessible and require minimal effort.

I would add that this is a generation characterized by a strong suspicion of and resistance to authority (some of that suspicion is well justified) and this makes it less likely to find the moral imperatives of any belief system all that attractive.

]]> By: jc http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-837 jc Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:42:35 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-837 incoming,<br/> this question probably deserves better treatment that i am going to give in this post. i don't really want to go into all of the issues i have with christianity. but yes i have not been to church since jan 06. but for me the crux of the issue is that i came to realization that i was following an idea of christianity that did not seem to be based in reality. i was under the impression that christianity offered a personal relationship with God or at least communication with him. i tried to establish that communication by praying, reading the bible, participating in street missions, and going to church. i can't say that in my life i have ever experienced God directly. i have come to the position now that if i can't experience or communicate with God then christianity as i know it and as the church seems to present it does not stand. i am in a circle of friends who have been leaving the church as well over the past few years with similar issues. like i said this is not the only issue i have with christianity. but i think all of my other issues would be easier to resolve if there were it possible for me to have a direct relationship with God. <br/><br/>... i am interested in christianity and philosophy mainly because i am interested in the truth but i also want christianity to be true. i would rather my consciousness did not end with my death and would rather that my life had meaning. so i frequent this blog and read donald miller books in the hopes i can figure out how i am wrong. ayn rand is making more since to me right now than christianity. there that's my bio. incoming,
this question probably deserves better treatment that i am going to give in this post. i don’t really want to go into all of the issues i have with christianity. but yes i have not been to church since jan 06. but for me the crux of the issue is that i came to realization that i was following an idea of christianity that did not seem to be based in reality. i was under the impression that christianity offered a personal relationship with God or at least communication with him. i tried to establish that communication by praying, reading the bible, participating in street missions, and going to church. i can’t say that in my life i have ever experienced God directly. i have come to the position now that if i can’t experience or communicate with God then christianity as i know it and as the church seems to present it does not stand. i am in a circle of friends who have been leaving the church as well over the past few years with similar issues. like i said this is not the only issue i have with christianity. but i think all of my other issues would be easier to resolve if there were it possible for me to have a direct relationship with God.

… i am interested in christianity and philosophy mainly because i am interested in the truth but i also want christianity to be true. i would rather my consciousness did not end with my death and would rather that my life had meaning. so i frequent this blog and read donald miller books in the hopes i can figure out how i am wrong. ayn rand is making more since to me right now than christianity. there that’s my bio.

]]> By: Kendall & Sabrina http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-836 Kendall & Sabrina Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:41:53 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-836 It's Sabrina here again...<br/><br/>As the options are laid out on the table I'd like to ponder the second point.<br/><br/>2)The church has failed to provide a meaningful experience of God by catering to demographic interests and the consumer mentality of churchgoers.<br/><br/>Perhaps we are shirking responsibility here. Was it Meic Pearse who pointed that we, as Westerners tend to lay blame for problems on external institutions (such as the government, church etc)? Forgive me if I have the author wrong.<br/><br/>Regardless, if we say that "the church" has failed to provide a meaningful experience, and we are to be the church (or body), then it perhaps is US who just maybe have neglected to search out the meaningful experience we desire.<br/><br/>With that said, I'll throw on the table for discussion the decline in work ethic that my generation possesses. Perhaps we want the "experience" without the actual effort it requires, and take off when our half-hearted attempts to achieve meaningful experiences don't pan out. It’s Sabrina here again…

As the options are laid out on the table I’d like to ponder the second point.

2)The church has failed to provide a meaningful experience of God by catering to demographic interests and the consumer mentality of churchgoers.

Perhaps we are shirking responsibility here. Was it Meic Pearse who pointed that we, as Westerners tend to lay blame for problems on external institutions (such as the government, church etc)? Forgive me if I have the author wrong.

Regardless, if we say that “the church” has failed to provide a meaningful experience, and we are to be the church (or body), then it perhaps is US who just maybe have neglected to search out the meaningful experience we desire.

With that said, I’ll throw on the table for discussion the decline in work ethic that my generation possesses. Perhaps we want the “experience” without the actual effort it requires, and take off when our half-hearted attempts to achieve meaningful experiences don’t pan out.

]]> By: ryan http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-835 ryan Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:40:35 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-835 re: #3 above, it seems to me that in some very important respects, the question of whether or not Christianity delivers what it promises cannot be answered adequately in this life. I suppose it depends on what we think Christianity promises - if we think that Christianity ought to make our lives more enjoyable and help us feel better about ourselves, then it may not deliver the goods. Or, as jc has alluded to, if we are taught to expect a specific kind of 'personal relationship with Jesus' (usually, as far as I can tell, having to do with expecting certain kinds of emotions and experiences), then false senses of expectation can arise.<br/><br/>Speaking personally, what I 'expect' from the 'product' of Christianity is that evil and suffering will be ultimately eradicated, and a new era of peace and harmony (shalom?) will be ushered in. I expect that some (not all) of my intuitions regarding what life ought to look like will be validated. To borrow the language of C.S. Lewis, I expect that the longings which I find cannot be satisfied in this world will be satisfied in another. If these are at least partial expressions of the criteria, then I can't fully evaluate how well Christianity 'delivers' until the next life when these intuitions will either be vindicated or exposed as illusions. re: #3 above, it seems to me that in some very important respects, the question of whether or not Christianity delivers what it promises cannot be answered adequately in this life. I suppose it depends on what we think Christianity promises - if we think that Christianity ought to make our lives more enjoyable and help us feel better about ourselves, then it may not deliver the goods. Or, as jc has alluded to, if we are taught to expect a specific kind of ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ (usually, as far as I can tell, having to do with expecting certain kinds of emotions and experiences), then false senses of expectation can arise.

Speaking personally, what I ‘expect’ from the ‘product’ of Christianity is that evil and suffering will be ultimately eradicated, and a new era of peace and harmony (shalom?) will be ushered in. I expect that some (not all) of my intuitions regarding what life ought to look like will be validated. To borrow the language of C.S. Lewis, I expect that the longings which I find cannot be satisfied in this world will be satisfied in another. If these are at least partial expressions of the criteria, then I can’t fully evaluate how well Christianity ‘delivers’ until the next life when these intuitions will either be vindicated or exposed as illusions.

]]> By: Gil http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-834 Gil Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:25:44 +0000 http://hepburnmusings.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/life-stages-and-spiritual-interest/#comment-834 So the three options on the table are:<br/><br/>1) The transcience and rootlessness of this generation has led to disengagement in all areas of life.<br/><br/>2)The church has failed to provide a meaningful experience of God by catering to demographic interests and the consumer mentality of churchgoers.<br/><br/>3)The problem is the product itself - Christianity has not been able to deliver on what it has promised. So the three options on the table are:

1) The transcience and rootlessness of this generation has led to disengagement in all areas of life.

2)The church has failed to provide a meaningful experience of God by catering to demographic interests and the consumer mentality of churchgoers.

3)The problem is the product itself - Christianity has not been able to deliver on what it has promised.

]]>